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3/28/2012 9:11:45 PM

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Section 5: Shotguns
Subject: Maverick HS-12 Shotgun Msg# 826827

From:

Allan Tarvid

Joined 10/5/2000

To:

Troy Unruh (Read)

Joined 11/11/2011

I find it arrogant to think that the most vetted form of self defense in the firearm world, that has successfully been used by solider, sailor, farmer, wife for hundreds of years, can somehow now be dismissed as no longer relevant.

I can deploy it faster, fire off 2 rounds faster, not have to worry about pumping or slide release but can concentrate on target acquisition and whether or not to shoot.

I've got to go with Mark on this one... How do you know that there are only going to be two goblins coming in through the broken glass? And, if there are only two, how do you know you won't miss either one of them with your first shot in the dark? Not something I'd ever bet any family lives on.

As for operational difficulties, if you can open and close a double gun you can probably work a slide between its two stops. Both have safeties to worry about, so neither has an advantage there.

The two-shot capacity is the absolute deal breaker for me. I would never use a double-anything for self defense. It strikes me as choosing to enter a fight with one hand tied behind your back and then tying it there yourself. I don't see anything positive about putting yourself further behind the self-defense 8-ball on purpose. Unless you and the local DA believe that a local castle doctrine law means you can shoot people just for breaking into your home, you are not going to be able to use deadly force unless and until you are under the imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm. That means you are already behind and trying to catch up under the worst possible kind of pressure. I'll take the extra cushion of having five or more rounds in a pump gun, and the benefit of being able to slip replacements into the magazine tube with the gun continuously pointed at the threat and without temporarily disabling its action. If you can break open the double, clear the empty hulls, poke fresh shells in the holes, close the gun and reacquire the threat (in the dark) as fast as you can ca-chuck a pump gun (and with as little distraction), then you're not giving anything up by using a double. Otherwise you are taking an unnecessary risk.

It isn't that a double gun is no longer relevant but rather that there are choices far less limited available today. I don't see any arrogance here, to me it looks more like an attempted promotion of common sense. Shrug

That's how I see it but I freely admit I've been proven wrong before... BigGrin

For reference, the above message is a reply to a message where:
A good shooter can make anything work better than it should, but with better technology available, why limit yourself?In a self-defense situation you're going to have enough problems already without dealing with those of your own making.

the above quote gives me trouble. first, a "good shooter" can make anything work. I see the double as defense as not necessarily being for the good shooter or accomplished shooter. I have known a number of non-shotgun folks who for one reason or another struggled with a pump gun and were either unwilling or unable to practice enough to make one run well in the middle of the night when the glass breaks. for them a double is a viable option.

"with better technology available" I have problems with this one as well. The pump shotgun is anything but cutting edge technology. i would assume cutting edge would be some clip fed semi auto. the technology conundrum is always present in gunning, there is always something that someone says is better, faster, stronger. but that doesnt mean it is best, and it certainly doesnt mean it is best for everyone.

the double is about as old as firearm technology can get, and it has been used in a short barrel format for almost as long as it has been around, and for self defense. I find it arrogant to think that the most vetted form of self defense in the firearm world, that has successfully been used by solider, sailor, farmer, wife for hundreds of years, can somehow now be dismissed as no longer relevant.

it is relevant. what mossberg and a couple of others have attempted to do is tweak it a bit. now I am not certain they succeeded. but i understand the temptation to modify something that has performed admirably for centuries.

i own pumps,a semi and a double. My choice for middle of the night glass breaking is a double. I can deploy it faster, fire off 2 rounds faster, not have to worry about pumping or slide release but can concentrate on target acquisition and whether or not to shoot. If a HORDE of evil comes into my house, i will quickly determine the double is outclassed, true. I might attempt to reload or merely drop the firearm. But in numerous scenarios and conditions, I , who have been a shotgunner since I was 12, feel a double works better in that situation. I also think a beginner or one who is willing to commit to a minimum of practice might find that a better solution as well. Perhaps not in the format offered, (not sure on nonextactor o/u for defense) but the double should not be dismissed. until the revival of the cowboy shooters there really havent been affordable doubles out there that could serve in that duty, without some hunting and some smithing.

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